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In a previous post we were discussing the necessity to have some sort of standardized definition of what science fiction actually is. This is somewhat of a question that has been asked of SF for such a long time, but we need to come to an agreement on this subject so we can proceed with the canons. The goal here is to come up with one sentence that defines science fiction that we can use to address the texts that are suggested for the canon.
So, let's start with what science fiction is to you? What elements must it include? What elements cannot be present? Do we still include works that are considered classic SF even if their futures haven't happened?
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"Anonymous" brought up some good points about the canon, so I decided to open up the discussion by presenting his comment and addressing things and asking my own questions. This is for discussion, and he raises very important questions about the canon. (His suggestions for the list were also added).
Are y'all still talking about this, or am I trying to bring a dead conversation back to life?
It's still alive as far as I know, but one of the key issues is getting people involved, which is already a problem within the blogging community anyway. I am not really qualified to make the canon all by myself and I think an SF & F canon should be represented by readers rather than by some small sect of individuals, such as is the case with the Western Canon.
Couple of questions...
I am curious why you have included the Odyssey in the Fantasy list. I have always read Homer as Mythology (a genre in its own right). I think his writing has had greater effect on epic poetry than science fiction and fantasy, and I'm wondering if we really need the power of his name to validate the SF&F canon.
That was a piece I put up of my own accord because
I felt that it had significant influence on fantasy, even if it doesn't seem so. Many of the things that have sort of become tropes of fantasy were alive in Homer's works first. What also makes it fantasy is that we know now that most likely much of what is written never really happened. It's sort of like one of the first great fantasies if you will.
On the subject of it being in the canon. Nothing on the current list is actually "in" the canon. The list is only a list of works suggested and added, all of which are up for discussion. So, actually if you have good arguments against a work that is there, bring them up, just as you did about the Odyssey.
Does anyone else agree with the quoted blurb about Homer? I can see what he/she is saying, so perhaps I am somewhat wrong in putting it on the list for discussion. Any other thoughts?
Also, Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream... I can understand why you might consider it for the Fantasy canon; however, I think there is more to High Fantasy than faries and pixies and imps getting themselves and gullible humans into trouble.
Props to Shakespeare for getting Western Literature started, but I don't think he belongs in a canon of speculative fiction literature. I think Midsummer Night's Dream would be more comfortable in folklore, or comedic drama (where it is traditionally slotted).
Well, the fantasy side of the canon is just fantasy in general. It doesn't pertain to only high or epic fantasy, but to any form of fantasy that is clearly marked as 'fantasy'. So this could even mean children's fairy tales if such stories were significantly influential.
However, I would like to hear more of what you have to say about Shakespeare. I agree that he is not, in any sense of the word, a fantasist as we would see it today. He might have written some fantasies, but perhaps that had more to do with the world he lived in. Does anyone have anything to say about this too?
In the interests of full disclosure, I am against tradition, form, and any other expectations a board of "scholars" might have for a piece of writing under consideration for admission to the literary canon.
Have I enabled a reader to escape from the ordinary?
Then I am happy.
Have I allowed my audience to grow beyond the expectations and limitations of their world?
Then I am happy.
I agree! This is why I wanted this project to be open to the public. I don't want a canon devised by a bunch of people sitting in a University some place deciding what is considered canon worthy. They are often too narrow-minded and pay far too much attention to trivial things like whether it won the Nobel. Awards are not a prime component of selections for this project, but if the award is worthy of note it can help a work be pushed higher on the list. Generally, though, works that receive speculative fiction based awards are voted on by fellow specfic writers or by readers themselves (such as the Hugos). The works for this project have to be works that influence the genre and have some impact on the people that read them.
Perhaps building a canon will result in a philosophical discussion of what science fiction and fantasy is, but I wonder if it would be more useful first to define what we mean when we say "science fiction" or "fantasy" so that we recognize what we're looking for when it passes us on the street.
This is a very good point. I have personal opinions of what I think SF and F are, and I suppose I'll share mine. I would appreciate feedback on this too. This point is very valid. If we have differing opinions of what SF or F is, then we should really consider trying to find a middle ground.
Science fiction, to me, must involve the future, or in the case of books in which the future no longer works, a prior future, in which technology has advanced in some way, or the date itself is advanced. Space ships, computers, cybernetics, time travel, aliens, etc. may be present. Near-future is still science fiction, even if the technology is very close to today. Alternate history, I think, only applies if something very science fiction-ish appears in the work.
Fantasy may be in the real past, or in an imaginary world, and must involve some aspect of magic or the medieval, or both. Or it may be set in a world of today where magic exists. This is sort of more vague because fantasy to me is really very wide. I think magical realism, however, doesn't really apply because it doesn't attempt to bring that magic out. It's more like odd phenomenon.
Thoughts on this? Perhaps my wording is off, or you have a different opinion.
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I've added several items to the list already (Fahrenheit 451 and Ringworld just now). You can find The List here, or you can click it on the right sidebar there. These are simply items for discussion at this point. Meaning, you can suggest ANYTHING you think should be considered or discussed, provided it fits the criteria found here.
You can leave suggestions anywhere on the site, although an ideal, organized place would be here.
Also, please tell people about this. It won't go anywhere unless we get community involvement. If you have an argument you'd like to bring up on any subject related to this project, please use the "Contact Me" link on the right to send an email with your argument. I can post it here and provide a link to your blog and we can have a discussion on a particular book. I haven't read everything on the list right now, so I can't comment on whether I think they belong, but perhaps some of you have an opinion. So feel free to email me!
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